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This interview was originally part of a paper for Exploring Queer History at Henry P. Graves College. “Hidden Homo Heroes: Gay Voices Of The Greatest Generation” included four interviewees: Captain Steven Rogers, Sergeant Richard Askwith of the 17th Airborne Division, Reverend Clive Otterson of Omaha, Nebraska, and Maisie Howarth, who worked in an ammunitions factory during the war. Captain Rogers’ interview was then reformatted and an abridged version was published in The Advocate with his permission. The full interview is posted here.

Captain America was more my dad’s generation of hero than mine. I recall being told as a kid that “Captain America would not approve” of how our nations’ morals had gone into decay. But he didn’t have much to do with me - especially after I came out and, according to my folks, joined the moral decay - other than being part of how I knew I was gay. Because my fifteen-year-old self didn’t want to be Captain America; he wanted to do Captain America. Dad would show me pictures of Steve Rogers and talk about his sense of honor and duty and I would think: Mmmm, shoulders.

When he was discovered again, my dad was over the moon (yes, Dad and I are on barely-speaking terms now.) Me? Yeah, I thought it was cool that he was back. But he was from an older era, and his concerns were not mine.

Like most of the gay community, I was beyond shocked by his outing and by the subsequent revelation that he and Bucky Barnes had been lovers. I’d never visited his Smithsonian exhibit, but I’m absolutely sure there was nothing there about the love that dared not speak its name.

A week after he came out, after I’d lost a drunken bet the night before, I contacted him to ask if he’d agree to be interviewed for a college history project.

In person Captain Rogers is even more impressive than on the screen, if you can believe it. He’s also surprisingly approachable. The stern jaw and steely gaze are there - and the shoulders, of course. And he can speak forcefully and passionately as we’ve all seen on those Youtube clips we’ve all cheered (“The only thing illicit about it was the bigotry of the time” is my personal favorite). But he can also blush like a schoolgirl and get a little tongue-tied sometimes, and the humble “Gosh, I’m just a kid from Brooklyn” schtick? It’s not a schtick.

He graciously agreed to talk to me for about an hour over lunch at a New York restaurant, though he warned me that there were might be some questions he would not be able to answer because they “might not be my story to tell.” What follows is a transcript of parts of our conversation.

OK, it’s killing me: why did you agree to this? You’ve been asked for interviews before and you’ve turned them down. Why a college history project?
I was a student too, not so long ago - to me, anyway.

Really? What did you take?
I went to City College for Visual Arts for a few years. Never graduated, though.

The War?
No, I kept getting sick so all our money went to that. Bucky had to work himself to the bone just to keep me alive. College sort of stayed a dream. But I can remember being a student. And this felt like something I wanted to help with.

I was pretty surprised that you agreed. I’ve seen you duck questions about politics, modern art, pop culture, and--
It’s ridiculous, though, asking somebody like me about politics. I’ve missed the last seventy years of world politics and I'm just a soldier; why should my opinion be that valuable? But I do know about history - some parts of it, anyway. I was there.

Have you spoken to anybody else about history stuff?
I did. There was a group that contacted me a while ago to talk about the Depression.

Why gay history though? You’ve been in this century for a few years now, and you never said anything about being gay.
(He’s quiet for a while, and this is the first time I see the Captain America manner falter a little). That’s part of why I thought I’d help. I didn’t come out for a long time after I’d realized that things were different now. I knew there were kids who killed themselves because of their sexuality, and it sometimes made a difference to those kids to know they weren’t alone. There were good reasons for not coming out - which I can’t go into - but the fact is that I didn’t. And now that I’m out, I’d like to make up for that.

This isn’t a big project, though. It’s just a college paper and presentation.
Not everything has to be big. Little things can make a difference. There’s soldiers out there fighting important battles, but there’s also VA counsellors working to make the world a better place one veteran at a time.

Did it occur to you that I might be a reporter out to get a story?
It didn’t, but Black Widow and Iron Man checked you out before I’d even thought to think about it. I know your background, where your parents went to school, and your GPA. Widow says you should take your Russian Literature class more seriously.

Uh. Wow.
They’re always doing stuff like that. It really shouldn’t surprise me any more.

Did you ever think about coming out before?
We talked about it among the Avengers at one point, and we decided I shouldn’t. It was the right decision, but it came at a price.

And why did you come out when you did? I mean, I know there was that picture--
(He laughs) It wasn’t really my choice, but I didn’t mind much. I wouldn’t have gone on a date in public with a man if I’d still been worried about being outed. So when that paper called me to say someone had taken pictures of me on a date and did I have a statement, I really didn’t think much of it.

You seemed to treat it like it wasn’t a big deal.
Compared to a lot of other stuff going on in my life, it really wasn’t. Knowing that nothing was going to happen - no blue ticket, no prison, no public shunning - made it pretty much a non-issue. I understand that it was a big deal to a lot of people, but it wasn’t to me.

Really?
I was already out to everyone who mattered to me. The hard part was over, as far as I was concerned.

What do you mean?
The other Avengers all knew that Bucky and I had been together, before I went to look for him.

What was their reaction?
It was... it was pretty strange for me. They didn’t even blink. They took it for granted that of course I’d have to try to find him, now that I knew that he was alive, and of course they were gonna help. Tony [Stark, Iron Man] even said something about helping me find my childhood sweetheart, which... (he shakes his head)

What?
(He thinks for a while) That’s a term you use for something that’s... good.

It’s sweet and innocent, isn’t it?
Yeah. Yeah, it is.

And that’s not how you thought of it?
That’s not how we were raised to think about it. Go take a look at the Smithsonian. They talk about us being friends since childhood, and inseparable after we grew up, and that’s all good and honorable, like it was back then, but... back then, the way we felt about each other, that was perversion. Like a stain on something noble. Hearing Tony describe it that way - it still throws me off.

What did you think after you came out? Publicly, I mean. How was it different from how it would have been in your time?
It doesn’t compare. Back then nobody would have been supportive, nobody would have said, “Thank you for serving your country even though you weren’t allowed to.” Everybody would’ve just been disgusted.

When that reporter asked you “When did you know you were gay?” your answer went viral.
(He laughs) “When did you know you were straight,” yeah.

You didn’t answer her, though.
I didn’t really have an answer. I always knew I was different, but we didn’t think of it as being gay. We just knew there was something wrong with us. That’s how we thought of it at the time. I fell in love with Bucky when we were kids - thirteen or so, I think. But nobody talked about being gay, just - you know, having impure thoughts.

It wasn’t a sexual identity.
Yeah. In some ways it was a little more free, because it wasn’t like you had to decide whether you were gay or not. You just... you were a normal person, with something wrong with you. And it wasn’t even that big a deal, depending on the circumstances. There were plenty of regular guys who went with... well, we used the word fairies at the time--

Feminine men?
Yeah. And they didn’t think of themselves as any different from anybody else. The fairies were, but the others were just... going a gay way for a bit.

Did you ever?
No. God, no. I felt bad enough about Bucky. I was never even tempted to do... that. We were... we were good kids, mostly. I got into a lot of fights, and Bucky went out a lot and drank too much sometimes, but we were good kids.

You didn’t mix with that type of person?
That type - you mean the fairies? No, no that’s not it. We had men like that who lived in our neighborhood - they were part of the neighborhood, they weren’t shunned or anything. But we didn’t - we didn’t want to be like them.

Why not?
Because they weren’t... they weren’t shunned, but they also weren’t accepted. There was nothing wrong with chatting with them, being friends with them, taking them soup if they were sick, but if they were beaten up nobody thought there was anything wrong with that. Bucky once fought off a drunk guy who was kicking one of the neighborhood fairies bloody. The drunk had tried to get into Tommy’s pants and Tommy had said no, so he almost kicked Tommy to death. And yeah, people thought it was too bad, and one of the old ladies brought Tommy some medicine, but in the end most people agreed that Tommy kind of deserved it.

Nobody called the police, I bet.
No, of course not. We wouldn’t have wanted Tommy to get in trouble. I didn’t want that kind of life for Bucky.

Did anyone know about you two?
Our priest, when we were growing up. We both told him, in Confession.

How did that go?
Not great, but not that badly. I mean, we were at a boys’ orphanage so it wasn’t... we weren’t unique or anything. We got lots of Hail Marys and Our Fathers. Bucky kind of... laughed it off.

Did you?
No. I took it seriously.

There was a clip that was played endlessly, of you being asked what you thought about the people who said you’d been corrupted by our degenerate century--
Yeah, I know, because supposedly I wasn’t gay before--

And you saying--
(He rolls his eyes. I didn’t know Captain America did that.) I know, I know - “Since none of them have been in my bed before, I don’t see how they can say that.”

You’ve seen the clip?
I didn’t have to. It was something I said off the cuff, but I’ve been teased about it non-stop ever since.

By who?
Take a guess.

Iron Man?
And Hawkeye. “There’s a sports commenter who’s saying he doesn’t believe that you've always been gay - I don’t think he’s been in your bed before?” and “Hey Steve, what about Winston Churchill? Was he one of the people who weren’t in your bed before?” “So Steve, just how many people weren’t in your bed before?”

(I’m laughing here - honest to God, Dad never once mentioned Captain America having a sense of humor, and he does a pretty good impression of Hawkeye)
It got pretty repetitive, but they had fun.

What did you think of it? What they said, I mean.
Honestly? I think it’s one of the most ridiculous things I’ve ever heard. I wasn’t kidding; people like us have been around since the beginning of time; we just had to hide, before. I’ve heard people say that all of this “acceptance” is what’s causing so many kids to “turn gay” and I’ve had a hard time not saying stuff that’s not polite in mixed company.

I don’t think I could take it if I heard Captain America swear.
(He laughs) I usually don’t. But it’s such a stupid thing to say. Look, in my time we could be fired, not hired, thrown out of the army, thrown into prison, beaten up with impunity - and we were still there. There was no “acceptance” to “turn us gay” - and we were still there. And all of the disapproval in the world didn’t “cure” us. It just made us miserable. I mean, I shouldn’t speak about anybody else's experiences, but I can tell you as a kid growing up in a time when the whole world disapproved, it didn't make any difference.

What do you think of conversion therapy?
Where you go to church and they straighten you out?

Even they don’t claim it works. The most they can do is make you OK with being gay but never acting on it. So either being alone for life, or being married to someone you’re not attracted to. Which doesn’t sound to me like a very cheerful proposition.

What did you think of the negative reactions you got?
What negative reactions?

It wasn’t all positive.
I really didn’t notice anything negative.

Some people said that the Youtube clips showed you weren’t taking it seriously. And that you were airing out your private life in public.
Oh that!

So you did notice it.
I thought you meant serious objections. Not people just airing out their opinions.

I guess so. What did you think?
Well, I wasn’t taking it seriously. There was a lot going on in my life at the time; having pictures of me on a date and being asked about something that really didn’t matter wasn’t serious, so I didn’t take it seriously.

You don’t care about being a role model to today’s impressionable youth?
I care very much. If I had done something terrible, and knew that little kids with Captain America action figures would feel crushed, I would take that very seriously. But I was having dinner with another man, not committing mass murder.

I understand that many kids with homophobic parents have been hurt by this, and I don’t take that lightly. But I’m not responsible for their parents’ belief system.

What about the people who said you were airing out your dirty laundry?
I was asked point-blank, under oath, during an inquiry into the Winter Soldier, if Bucky and I had been lovers. First off: it’s not dirty laundry. Second: I didn’t have a choice. Anybody who didn’t want to hear about my sex life can take their complaints to the panel member who asked me about it while I was under oath.

Any other negative reactions?
Tony goes through them, so I don’t see most of it. I know some people have said they no longer respect the shield - or that I don’t respect the shield.

What would you say to them if you could?
Not much. They’re entitled to their opinion.

But what do you think?
I think it’s interesting that some of the people who admired me the most before now hate me the most. I’m just a kid from Brooklyn. I didn’t do anything particularly heroic, except be a soldier and try to protect other people - I mean, someone once told me that everything special about me came out of a bottle, and if that’s true then Dr. Erskine was the hero, not me. But the ones who still thought I was some kind of hero... everything I did that they thought was heroic, was done by a gay man. The only difference now is that they know it.

Good point.
And everyone who idealized Bucky as my loyal sidekick, everyone who honored him for giving his life for his country - they were idealizing and honoring a gay man. Nothing’s changed except their perceptions.

Yeah.
And we weren’t the only ones. There were plenty of other gays fighting for freedom - for countries that despised them.

Not just fighting, either. Ever heard of Alan Turing?
The code-breaker, yeah. Exactly. He saved millions of lives.

Our dinner arrives and we talk about my paper, which is going to be called “Hidden Homo Heroes of World War II: Gay Voices of the Greatest Generation.” Even the vocabulary’s changed, he notices, and points out, “In my day ‘gay’ meant happy, and you only used it to mean people like us as a joke.” We talk about homo, pervert, pansy, queer, fag, dyke, fairy, homophile, invert, bi, trans, pansexual - words we’ve gained, lost, and changed over time. “Pride” strikes him as almost incomprehensible as something that people now associate with being gay.

We talk about my paper, and what I’m going to ask him about (childhood and upbringing, life during WWII, life since then, what's different today. He and I have already covered many of my questions.)

We also talk about the other subjects I’ve spoken to so far - the sergeant who was blue-ticketed out of the service; the pastor who shepherded his flock through some pretty dark days; the farm girl who moved to the big city to work at a munitions factory with her girlfriend.

I finally ask him what it was like, serving as a gay man on the front lines during WWII.

What was it like, serving and knowing that you weren’t supposed to?
I didn’t really think about it that way very much.

You weren’t afraid of getting a blue discharge?
I was, yeah. We both were. We just didn’t think about it much.

It was pretty horrific.
Oh yeah. At least you weren’t gonna do hard labor at Leavenworth for ten years, but it meant you’d be shunned. Your whole life was ruined if you got one of those. Nobody would hire you, you couldn’t get Army benefits... it was a huge thing hanging over our heads.

The sergeant who got one, that I spoke to? He had to move to the West Coast. He’d gone to help his country and ended up losing his job, his wife and kids - everything.
Exactly. The thing was, everyone knew that... you know, stress relief between pals, that kind of thing, went on, and people would mostly look the other way. But it was different if you were together. If you were... well, like me and Bucky.

The other thing blue discharges were used for was for black soldiers who were insubordinate to white officers. One of Gabe Jones’ buddies from back home was blue-ticketed out, just for not saying Yes Sir fast enough. It was crazy.

But you didn’t worry?
It wasn’t like we were wearing scarlet letters. And we were serving together in the same unit, but we were used to hiding what we were.

Was that part of why Bucky Barnes had a reputation as a ladies’ man? Was it all just to throw off suspicion?
Not all of it, I don’t think.

Was he bisexual?
I don’t know... I mean, we didn’t think in terms of homosexual, bisexual, any of that. Like I said, we didn’t really label ourselves. Bucky was good with girls, and I wasn’t. We never did one of those Kinsey scale tests or anything.

Did he cheat on you with girls?
He went with girls because I told him to. We didn’t think of it as cheating. Most of the times he went with girls happened when we weren’t together.

Did you?
No.

Not even when you were apart?
No. No girl would look at me twice anyway.

What about after you were in the USO? You were pretty buff by that point.
(He honest-to-God blushes here.) No. I didn’t know how to talk to girls.

What about Peggy Carter?
What about her?

She was known in history as your girlfriend.
She was, yeah. Nobody seemed to notice that she never called herself that.

Was she?
No.

Was there a relationship between you?
She was... if I could have been with any girl, it would have been Peggy. She was so amazing. The most amazing woman I’ve ever met, and that’s saying something - I mean, I know the Black Widow.

You had her photograph on your watch.
Yes, I did. Bucky gave that to me.

Really?
You have to understand, we were so used to doing things that would stop people from suspecting... we didn’t even think of it as using her. I mean, we were, but we didn’t think of it that way.

Why not?
Because we didn’t think of it as passing... we just thought we were, you know, encouraging each other to have healthy relationships.

Would you have married her?
I don’t know. I don’t think so. Bucky pushed me to think about it, but I wasn’t so sure. I thought... I didn’t want to be with a woman if I thought I might cheat on her with Bucky.

Why not just be with each other? I get what you said about being afraid of being shunned and blue-ticketed, but you did a lot of other stuff that was pretty tough. Why not this?
I think I could’ve faced society’s disapproval and faced all of it if it was just me. I just couldn’t do that to Bucky. He deserved more.

He was a lot braver than I was, though. I always thought that I was being noble, pushing him away. I didn’t realize that we could have just stayed together and not cared what anybody thought; I didn’t realize that it was worth it. I just thought of it as living forever looking over our shoulders, being afraid, and I couldn’t do that to him.

We’d been apart before the War started, but we got back together after I rescued him and the others. I... it just felt like life was too short, and I’d already almost lost him once.

But you had to be careful.
Very careful. We had to act like we were just friends in public. He couldn’t be seen coming in or out of my quarters at odd hours, we couldn’t - when we were out in the field, we shared a tent, but the others were right outside, so it was pretty much the same as when we were back at the base. And it was always a risk.

Who was more of a risk-taker?
He was, definitely. I was probably too cautious. I just felt like I couldn’t live with myself if anything happened to him because of me.

What kind of risks did he take?
Mostly minor stuff - coming to my quarters less than a week after the last time, that kind of thing.

A week?
Yeah. We really had to be careful. I thought once a week could be excused as just buddies wanting to shoot the breeze, but more than that might look suspicious. He thought I was paranoid. Sometimes he was a little more, uh, creative in the risks he took.

Like what?
One time we were billeted at a hotel in Rouens and he snuck into my room through the dumbwaiter.

You’re kidding!
It was pretty funny, yeah. And he got stuck, was the worst part. We’re trying to get him out and I’m trying to figure out how we’re going to explain it if I have to call the staff in to help get him unstuck, or if I should break the thing and just haul him out - but then how are we going to explain that - or if something’s gonna give and he’s gonna fall all the way down to the kitchen...

Holy crap.
Yeah. He got out, obviously. It wasn’t... the most romantic situation.

Did anyone ever find out?
I’ve thought about answering that question a lot. Because - I mean, they’re all dead. And the fact is, anybody who served with us who knew that we were a couple was breaking the law by not reporting it and having us discharged. So I’m not going to confirm or deny anybody’s name, and I’m not gonna give details, but I will say that yeah, some found out.

How’d that go?
It was... it was mostly horrible. It was like everything we’d been afraid of, except we didn’t actually get a blue ticket and get sent home in a scandal. But feeling like we’d lost respect, lost trust... it was horrible. The look of betrayal on their faces. And - and disgust. (There’s a long pause) It was also not as bad as we’d thought. There was... unexpected compassion. And understanding. From unexpected sources. Especially after Bucky died.

Did Peggy Carter know?
God I hope not!

What do you think of the apology you got from the Army Chief of Staff, for how you were treated during WWII?
It’s strange to get an apology from someone who wasn’t even alive when all of that was going on. It’s a good step. I do think I’m not the only one who deserves one, though. That sergeant you spoke to, for example.

His life was pretty much destroyed.
A lot of people’s were.

Over 5,000 people got blue tickets, actually, for being gay. Although a lot of them were upgraded after the War, if they were found to not have committed homosexual acts while serving.
Which wouldn’t have helped me or Bucky.

After dinner we move on to questions about life since WWII and what he thinks of it. This is different from what I’ve done before; my other interview subjects have a history from WWII to today, and Captain Rogers doesn’t. They have stories of marriages, children, scandal, coming out; he has almost seventy years of frozen sleep.

I word it a different way.

What do you feel about the developments that you missed in gay history?
First off I didn’t even know there was such a thing as “gay history” for a long time.

Yeah, I lot of people don’t.
I missed all of it. Kinsey, the Sexual Revolution, Stonewall, homosexuality dropped from the DSM...

I take it you read up on it.
Yeah.

You also missed Harvey Milk, AIDS-
And Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell, people starting to talk about gay marriage and gay ordination... it was a lot to take in.

What did you think?
Most of it I thought was great, obviously. Some of it I wasn’t so sure.

Like what?
Uh, mostly stuff glorifying anonymous sex. I don’t really... get that.

Do you disapprove?
It’s not that, so much. I just don’t... I was with someone for ten years. Really long-term. That’s what I’m more familiar with--

But not everybody can have that.
No, I know. But some people reject it, and say they don’t even want to try. That’s the part I can’t understand.

Anonymous sex isn’t a modern invention, though. There were bath-houses back in your day, weren’t there?
Yeah, I never went to them.

Did you know about them?
I didn’t live under a rock. I knew about them.

It’s funny, you don’t seem... I mean you have this wholesome image. It’s hard to fit that with somebody who knew about bath-houses.
Look, I was in the Army. People seem to forget that. The men I commanded went to brothels, they talked about sex all the time. After one of them got VD I did the sexual hygiene talk for my unit--

I’m sorry, Captain America gave the Clap Talk?!
Safe sex is very important.

(He pauses for a moment, because I’m laughing so hard I’m about to choke. You have not lived until you’ve seen Captain America say the words “Safe sex is very important” with those earnest blue eyes that you could swear are looking at an amber field of grain over your shoulder and I am so sorry that I don’t have this videotaping. And also that the USO never got him to talk about the importance of condoms while in uniform instead of raising war bonds.)

(After I’ve calmed down) I take it you didn’t go to brothels either.
No. Bucky pretended to a few times, but just came home to me instead.

So you wouldn’t have participated in all of that - the Sexual Revolution, I mean.
Definitely not if Bucky was still alive, no.

Are you saying you would never do it?
I’m not saying that at all. I just think that it’s something really personal, and... sex without love - it might sound like fun, but I can’t see doing that as a way of life. Wouldn’t it - it makes you disposable, in a way, doesn’t it?

You said yourself, though, there was plenty of casual sex in your time too. What do you think is different now?
I guess to a certain extent it’s better now that people admit it and don’t have double standards about it. In my day it was very much something that men did with “bad” girls, and that’s not right. I also never thought it was right for people to be imprisoned for being caught at a bath-house. And apparently people can do it without feeling guilty or dirty now, but...

I do think it makes it a little too easy to use one another. Like I said, it’s treating people like they’re interchangeable. Disposable.

You’re involved with someone now.
Yes. I did say I wasn’t going to talk about him though.

I wasn’t going to ask details. I asked other people how it was different now, versus when they were young, being involved with someone.
OK.

In your case... well, you’ve got the whole celebrity thing going too.
Yeah. That’s been unpleasant.

Did anything surprise you about the media reaction to your being involved with another man?
Other than the fact that nobody was seriously calling for us to be thrown into prison or for me to give back the uniform and shield?

Other than that, yeah.
Uh... actually one thing I found interesting was that nobody brought up the fact that he’s black. In my day that would’ve come up. I mean, him being a man would’ve been the big issue, but him being black would not have been dismissed.

Is racism that different today?
We had an integrated unit, one of the only ones in the Army. Jones and Morita were equal within our unit; nobody treated them any different from anybody else. But I saw how other people treated them. We’d be billeted at a hotel and they were given the worst rooms - and always housed together, even when we asked for Jones to be put in with Dernier because they both spoke French. And there was other stuff - I remember we had a photographer who came to take pictures of us for some paper Stateside and Falsworth suddenly noticed that he kept putting them in the background, or off to the side where they could be cropped out.

And it wasn’t subtle, either. I asked why he was doing that and he took me aside and said, “You understand, Captain, the folks back home, they don’t wanna see that boy and some Jap in their morning papers.”

What did you do?
Refused to cooperate until we could get a guarantee that the boy and the Jap would be in the picture.

What did your higher-ups think?
Colonel Phillips wasn’t someone you wanted to cross. Jones and Morita went into the centre of the picture.

Do you think things are better now?
Yeah, but you know, in some ways they really haven’t changed that much. It’s depressing.

So dating a black man wasn’t a big deal to you?
No.

Do you call him your boyfriend?
(The Captain America thing falters again and he looks like he hasn’t thought about it) Uh... I dunno. I don’t really call him anything except his name. We didn’t say anything, back then - not anything that was fit for polite company, anyway. Guess I’ll have to figure out what to call him.

Significant other?
That sounds... clinical.

What about Bucky Barnes?
What about him?

You haven’t seen him?
No.

Have you spoken to him?
No.

Is that hard?
Yeah.

Can I ask why aren’t you together any more?
I’d rather you didn’t.

What would you say to him, if you could talk to him now?
I'd tell him I'm sorry I sent him away all those times. I’d tell him I’m sorry I didn’t give us a chance, and didn’t try to make it work back then.

(He's quiet for a long time) And you should go on to other questions now.

I feel like I've crossed a line, somehow. I’m curious as hell - who isn’t? - but go on to some of my other questions.

Do you think it would have made any difference if you’d had gay role models growing up?
Oh, definitely. We thought we were alone. That was one of the things that I found really interesting, reading gay history. Some of the people who we now think were gay.

Like the guy who played Gandalf... Ian McKellen?
I didn’t know him. No, I mean people like Walt Whitman and Oscar Wilde. Maybe even Eleanor Roosevelt.

Yeah, I remember reading about her.
She was an amazing woman. She wasn’t just the First Lady, you know. She came to visit the wounded at one point. None of my men were in the hospital tent, but they found reasons to be there when she came by. One of the men said afterwards that when she’d walked into the ward he thought she was one of the most homely women he’d ever seen. And by the time she walked out, she was one of the most beautiful.

It would’ve made a difference, if we’d known. We wouldn’t have felt so alone. We wouldn’t have - I wouldn’t have - felt like there was something wrong with us. Like we had something to hide, like we deserved to be treated the way we were.

What about support from family? I know you were orphaned at an early age, but do you think having the support of your priest would’ve made a difference to you?
I’m sure it would have. We looked up to Father Shannon. His disapproval was hard to take.

What about your mother? If she’d been alive when you were a teenager, do you think you would have told her, and do you think she would’ve understood?
(He’s silent for a long time.) I loved my mother. She was a very compassionate person. She was a nurse, so she spent her life helping other people. And she raised me by herself and did the best she could. I owe her everything. But no, she wouldn’t have understood.

What do you mean?
She had a very strict sense of what was right and wrong. Don’t get me wrong - she wouldn’t have disowned me, or told me I was going to burn in hell and cursed me or anything. She probably would’ve even still loved Bucky. But she wouldn’t have understood.

How do you know?
Because she talked about some of the fairies in our neighborhood. Like I said, she had a lot of compassion for everybody, including them. But they were degenerates, to her. She warned me against spending too much time with them. She said they were to be pitied, like the drunks and the reefer dealers. But not copied.

You really think she wouldn’t have changed her mind?
No.

Do you think it would’ve made things difficult for you?
I loved my mother. And she loved me. But yeah, it would’ve made things difficult. I would’ve felt like I was letting her down.

Do you now?
(He thinks for a long time.) I don’t know. Probably. But it doesn’t really matter. You don’t always have to agree with the people you love, or live up to their ideals. Just your own.

I’m really thrown off by his response. I remember being told that Captain America had nothing but praise for his mother, and she was some sort of saint, and I should honor my own mother more - and I’m not sure where to go from here.

Then I realize that I’ve kept him way beyond the “one hour, tops” I promised him, and that he’s been gracious and helpful throughout. Not only has he paid for my lunch - he remembers being a student, he says - but he’s helped me more than he knows. Helped me see this as more than just a paper in which I want to earn an A. He and my other interview subjects have made me aware of everything I have to be grateful for.

I still get pissed off that even if I had a boyfriend, we couldn’t get married in all 50 states. That people like us still get beaten up or kicked out of our homes. We've still got a long way to go. But some of my buddies and I take it for granted, just how far we’ve come.

Seeing how lightly he takes being outed now; how little today’s hatred seems to matter to him, makes me realize just what he lived with in his time. Makes me realize that he lived with the entire world telling him he was wrong and disgusting - but still found the strength to volunteer to serve, for the very country that rejected him. That people like him fought for the freedom of kids like me, whether they were on the front lines or not, whether they came out or not.

Being with Captain Rogers - and Sgt. Askwith, Rev. Otterson, and Ms Howarth - has reminded me again that I stand on the shoulders of giants.

In Rogers’ case, those are pretty nice shoulders, I can't help pointing that out again.

I'm sorry, I've taken up a lot more of your time than I meant to. Was there anything else you wanted to say?
Good luck with your project. When is it due?

I got an extension, actually. Because I told my prof I’d gotten you as an interview subject.
Oh. Well, I hope you can fit some of this interview in. Sorry I couldn’t give more details about, uh, the actual War, but like I said, without any of them able to give permission to tell their stories...

No, that’s OK. I totally understand. (I’m not sure how to confess this next part.) Uh, the truth is, my friend Kari made me a bet while I was drunk, to give you a call. I didn’t think you’d agree. But I’m... I’m really glad I did.
(He smiles, and they really should take more pictures of Captain America smiling) Me too.

I leave thinking that I’ll have to call my dad and tell him about this. And maybe have a long talk, like we used to before. Because what do you know: my dad and I have something in common after all.

Hey Dad, you know your hero? Turns out he’s my hero now, too.